Would You Go On The Cross?Edit
I have two simple questions for our christian friends concerning the purported crucifiction of their savior.
The first: What did this 'jesus' sacrifice?
Certainly not his life. Don't you hold that this jesus is now in eternal bliss, in heaven, where he receives the undying love and gratitude from a multitude?
Sacrifice means loss. Sacrificing doesn't involve gain. It certainly doesn't involve no loss and infinite gain. Yet this 'jesus' loses nothing, and gains everything.
Some theists respond by saying that he lost his physical body. Edit
But what does paul say about the nature of flesh?
"For I know that in me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing...." (Rom 7:18)
In fact, we must all eventually lose our physical body, our soma:
"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor. 15:50)
So where's the sacrifice?
"But he suffered pain!"Edit
But everyday people suffer far worse pain. A child with Leukemia suffers eggregious amounts of pain, without any purpose, without any guarentee of an eternal reward in a blissful afterlife. They die without the hope of 'giving' their lives (and then getting it right back!) to save countless billions of others, without the pleasure of knowing that they are a 'hero' and without the eternal love and accolades that such an act would bring.
So don't insult yourself and logic itself by holding that this 'pain' is a sacrifice.
Some theists then insist that jesus, as an 'infinite being' suffered infinite pain.
But this is nonsense if you actually examine your terms, rather than just repeat them and quickly move on. Leaving aside the problems with an 'infinite being' for the sake of argument, for an infinite being to suffer 'infinite' pain, the being would need to suffer infinite harm. Infinite loss. But again, there is no loss, and the pain is finite.
So none of these responses work, or even make sense.
For those who still don't see the problem:Edit
Remember that It makes no sense to state that something is a sacrifice when
1) there was no loss, and
2) the gain for the behavior was infinite.
Here's the ultimate irony: every person in the world suffers more than Jesus! Jesus could not suffer even as much as a normal person:
Here is why:
1) Whatever his doubts (as made famous in the Garden of Gethesame) he purports to be the son of a god.
2) He knows that he will be loved and adored for his act
3) He knows he will save billions of souls with his act.
4) He knows his reward is infinitity in bliss.
5) He knows he will not lose anything, ergo, no sacrifice.
This is not a 'sacrifice', it is the biggest, best deal in the world.
So why do theists call this a 'sacrifice'? Because they don't bother to think it through. It takes compartmentalization. It's no wonder that Christians revel in bloody passion plays: by compeling us as limited, feeling beings to cotninually focus on the brief period of pain, we are stopped from thinking any of this through. You have to forget that millions die every day in doubt, for no reason. That's the real pain in the world. A child dies of starvation, with no reason, no reward, nothing. A cancer patient watches his body whither away, in pain. (I wonder if he sees this withering away of his worthless body as a good thing.) He's not getting any reward, any recognition, no assurance that he will go to some heaven. He just faces death without any of the comfort a messiah would have.
How many people in the world have sacrificed real blood for others? A mother or a father dies to save their own child - no reward, no assurances. They just do it.Every day, every person suffers more pain than this supposed savior could ever have suffered "for us". We all live in doubt, we all suffer pains. We do it because we must. Some of us even give more - we sacrifice our time, our blood, even our lives, for others.
No rewards. No guarentees.
Now for my second question: If you were offered the opportunity to go on the cross, to save billions and also go to heaven in eternal bliss, would you go?Edit
Before you answer:
Don't rush to find a way to sweep the cognitive dissonance away. Instead, think the question through,about it like this: imagine your child is about to be burned alive forever. And someone says to you: you can save him if you agree to go on the cross for three hours. In return, you not only save your own child, you save all children in the world. In addition, you are remembered and loved by billions. Furthermore, you will not actually be destroyed by this process, instead you will go directly to heaven to continue to exist, only now in eternal bliss (Note: there may be a 3 day side trip into hell.)
Would you refuse? Would ANYONE refuse? Seriously. There can be no greater gift in the world than to be offered the opportunity.
So, here we are: you are given this choice. What do you say?
Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates